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View Poll Results: My understanding of Guardiola's new tactics at Bayern is best described as:
I have little or no idea what Guardiola is trying to do. 2 4.35%
I understand what he is trying to do in some cases, but there are many things I don’t understand. 17 36.96%
I understand what he is trying to do in many cases, but there are some things I don’t understand. 22 47.83%
I understand everything he is trying to do. 5 10.87%
Voters: 46. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-08-2013, 09:44   #1
Badger
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Understanding Guardiola

In conjunction with an article I've been writing, I'd like to see what people feel about their understanding of what Guardiola is trying to do.

Feel free to discuss the topic, but the stats are the more important aspect for me at this stage.

Thanks
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Old 08-08-2013, 13:03   #2
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I think I've understood most of his ideas but I still think some of them are insane and will never work.
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Old 08-08-2013, 13:23   #3
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I think I've understood most of his ideas but I still think some of them are insane and will never work.
Thanks, Crews. (I'm assuming you have voted.)

Regarding those things which you understand but can't see working, is there a broader perspective that recognises that they wouldn't work in isolation, but might succeed if Guardiola also introduces further measures as well to counterbalance their weaknesses? I'm beginning to see more interrelation between his tactics, and that not many of them can be properly assessed in complete isolation.
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Old 08-08-2013, 15:03   #4
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I like what he is trying to do, he's obviously a smart coach but bayern are not Barcelona and German teams play much more differently than Spanish teams. I loved the way Bayern attacked last year and now it seems pep is trying to slow our game down, maybe I'm wrong but that's what I have been seeing so far
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Old 08-08-2013, 15:50   #5
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I like what he is trying to do, he's obviously a smart coach but bayern are not Barcelona and German teams play much more differently than Spanish teams. I loved the way Bayern attacked last year and now it seems pep is trying to slow our game down, maybe I'm wrong but that's what I have been seeing so far
Thanks, Red Viking.

I suppose that I was a little surprised by your comment about slowing things down. My reading of what I've seen so far is that Pep's tactics are about speeding up the attack in a variety of ways, and if it seems in any way slow for now, it is because the players haven't yet got it up to the pace that Guardiola ultimately wants.
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Old 08-08-2013, 15:53   #6
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Originally Posted by Badger View Post
Thanks, Red Viking.

I suppose that I was a little surprised by your comment about slowing things down. My reading of what I've seen so far is that Pep's tactics are about speeding up the attack in a variety of ways, and if it seems in any way slow for now, it is because the players haven't yet got it up to the pace that Guardiola ultimately wants.
Agreed! Im surprised people are complaining about offensive changes tbh i havent seen much of difference that warrants concern only thing i wud be worried about is the defense, thats where problems need to be solved....
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Old 08-08-2013, 16:01   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger View Post
Thanks, Crews. (I'm assuming you have voted.)

Regarding those things which you understand but can't see working, is there a broader perspective that recognises that they wouldn't work in isolation, but might succeed if Guardiola also introduces further measures as well to counterbalance their weaknesses? I'm beginning to see more interrelation between his tactics, and that not many of them can be properly assessed in complete isolation.
Well the most spoken topic, Thiago as DM: in isolation it will not work and without both Schweinsteiger&Martinez/Gustavo, Bayern will lose a lot of physicality which I consider a vitality. Thiago isn't good enough defensively to play in that position.

On the other hand I completely understand the signing of Thiago and dislike towards player like Gustavo. Thiago posses everything vital in Pep's system in terms of going forward fast, playing aggressively in the vicinity of opposition's players in the final third. He has speed, technicality, great first touch. But I believe he would be best utilized using higher on the pitch.

The reason Pep has used thiago as DM is that when Bayern has attained the ball and offensive players are rushing forward, there are always opponent players pressing in the middle, trying to acquire the ball back and this is where Thiago's prowess to dribble and bypass opposition pressers and move the ball to the flanks is extremely useful and the main reason why Gustavo/Martinez isn't used in that position. On the side note, Thiago has a tendency for showmanship which can be used well like in this case.

Team's overall defensiveness can be increased by making offensive players more integral for the system by, for example, applying box-to-box tactics etc. But I'm not overly fond of the idea. I would rather have defensive players for defending and offensive players for attacking. And do not understand me wrong, everyone should do a little bit of everything, but not at the cost of player's primal knack for whatever he is supposed to do. Perhaps adding some of Rinus Michel's "totaalvoetbal" theory in the mix could be useful, just like Jupp did last year.

I believe Lahm as a CM and Martinez as a CB are only experiments and considering the circumstances (pre-season), I will pay no attention to them.

I have also written on the tactics section about basics of Pep's system and some other matters that I do not believe are due to Pep. You can check them out if you are interested.

Last edited by Crews; 08-08-2013 at 16:19.
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Old 08-08-2013, 17:36   #8
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I think the only question I have is the DM position.

As far as the rest, I can see what Guardiola is trying to do.
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Old 08-08-2013, 18:23   #9
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I can see some of it, not much. But I'm a relative newbie to soccer and my overall comprehension of tactics and strategy is pretty deficient compared to many of you. I've got an advanced understanding of baseball, but my soccer IQ is pretty low so far. I expect to learn a ton this year, though, with all the arguments.
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Old 08-08-2013, 18:54   #10
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^ Football! F-o-o-t-b-a-l-l! Just kidding, I know it's not easy to start saying it this way!

I, like Filo only have questions regarding the DM position. I don't think Thiago will play there it's a waste. If we see it, then Pep most certainly does as well.
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Old 08-08-2013, 19:23   #11
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Badger, if you don't mind, I'll reply tomorrow after the game. I think I have an idea of what Guardiola's up to but it's subject to change after I see for myself how he handles a definitively competitive scenario.
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Old 08-08-2013, 19:45   #12
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While I was talking to my friend (who is a Barcelona fan) , we talked about Pep and he told me the following points:

1-it'll be a tough season for Pep and Bayern since he is playing a new system and changing the whole philosophy , because the Germans aren't used to play such a system , while the Spaniards are practicing this to their youth teams

2-his transfer deals are shit , but Barca's board are also shit since they were giving him a green light for every transfer , while Bayern's board has strong character and has a word in every transfer so that won't be a problem for us (he gave me Sanchez as an example)

3-he hates big squads and he prefers to promote youngsters and players from the reserves (example: he sold Eto'o and other players (maybe Ronaldinho but I'm not sure) and he promoted players like Cuenca , Tello , Pedro , Busquets , Thiago , Sergi Roberto ...)

4-he loves to attack and to have possession , because this will put pressure on the opponent and make them nervous because they are running on the pitch without touching the ball , so they will be prone to make errors and can't be disciplined for the whole 90 mins, thus gaps will appear in their defense and other factors to help the team scoring goals

5-the players improve a lot under Pep (he told me that Pique , Busquets , Iniesta , Pedro were shit before Guardiola , and the fans were angry because he was starting with them and they were having doubts just like most of us)

6-Busquets was a CM in Barca II and not a DM ... he converted him to a DM , and his role is more like a sweeper who'll be like a 3rd CB when the ball is with Barca , and this will make Pique and Puyol play wide and give freedom to the fullbacks to go forward (we saw Alves upfront for almost 90 mins) , so that's why he wants to put Schweini as #6

7-he plays with a high defensive line to avoid counter attacks , so when his players lose the ball , the DM and the 2 CBs will press on the opponent's attackers (with the fullbacks who are already playing as pseudo-DMs) , this will close the gap and give the opponent less space to switch positions and less freedom to make passes , thus they will lose the ball in a very short time


Sorry for the long post , but I liked the discussion and wanted to share the ideas here


anyway , I voted for option #3 (I know many of Pep's ideas but have some questions and doubts in some decisions)

Last edited by mea95; 08-08-2013 at 19:47.
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Old 08-08-2013, 20:17   #13
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to enjoy more watching your team, the team has to attack and take risk, it's whay I like about pep bs philosophy, taking risks is much enjoyable to watch than to be concervative
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Old 08-08-2013, 20:19   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crews View Post
Well the most spoken topic, Thiago as DM: in isolation it will not work and without both Schweinsteiger&Martinez/Gustavo, Bayern will lose a lot of physicality which I consider a vitality. Thiago isn't good enough defensively to play in that position.

On the other hand I completely understand the signing of Thiago and dislike towards player like Gustavo. Thiago posses everything vital in Pep's system in terms of going forward fast, playing aggressively in the vicinity of opposition's players in the final third. He has speed, technicality, great first touch. But I believe he would be best utilized using higher on the pitch.

The reason Pep has used thiago as DM is that when Bayern has attained the ball and offensive players are rushing forward, there are always opponent players pressing in the middle, trying to acquire the ball back and this is where Thiago's prowess to dribble and bypass opposition pressers and move the ball to the flanks is extremely useful and the main reason why Gustavo/Martinez isn't used in that position. On the side note, Thiago has a tendency for showmanship which can be used well like in this case.

Team's overall defensiveness can be increased by making offensive players more integral for the system by, for example, applying box-to-box tactics etc. But I'm not overly fond of the idea. I would rather have defensive players for defending and offensive players for attacking. And do not understand me wrong, everyone should do a little bit of everything, but not at the cost of player's primal knack for whatever he is supposed to do. Perhaps adding some of Rinus Michel's "totaalvoetbal" theory in the mix could be useful, just like Jupp did last year.

I believe Lahm as a CM and Martinez as a CB are only experiments and considering the circumstances (pre-season), I will pay no attention to them.

I have also written on the tactics section about basics of Pep's system and some other matters that I do not believe are due to Pep. You can check them out if you are interested.
Your point about Thiago is a valid counter to my comment; I, too, can’t see that as a successful experiment, and I don’t see what other measures would combine to make it a best option. Schweinsteiger appeared to be a lot better in that role, and the case for continuing the Thiago-as-DM experiment at the moment seems to have been killed off. I wouldn’t exclude the possibility that Guardiola will try it again sometime.

Lahm as CM seems purely a measure to facilitate Rafinha as RB, and it seems to me that Guardiola will try to keep Rafinha in enough practice to have him as backup. He fits Guardiola’s style not too badly, and I’m having increasing doubts about whether Guardiola really counts much on Contento.

Martinez as DM is different. I think that that is a serious experiment, and I outlined in the Bayern v Gladbach thread some of my reasoning behind that – essentially that a DM in a traditional 4-2-3-1 like Heynckes’ is playing in much the same area of the pitch as a CB in Guardiola’s 4-1-4-1. This is also a good example of needing further measures to counterbalance any weakness in that tactic and choice of player. I don’t know yet what these measures may be but the following are all possibilities that I’ll be watching out for:
- Martinez playing slightly ahead of the other three defenders.
- RB, LB and other CB learning some of the principles of operating as a 3-man defence
- RB and LB taking extra care that both don’t get caught out of position far up the pitch at the same time
- One CM dropping back quickly to create a double-pivot
- The second CB always being a fast player and Guardiola never playing Martinez and van Buyten together as the two CBs.
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Old 08-08-2013, 20:22   #15
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I can see some of it, not much. But I'm a relative newbie to soccer and my overall comprehension of tactics and strategy is pretty deficient compared to many of you. I've got an advanced understanding of baseball, but my soccer IQ is pretty low so far. I expect to learn a ton this year, though, with all the arguments.
The sheer honesty of your post deserves a lot of credit.

I hope you'll enjoy the coming season and your membership on BayernZone.
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