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Old 16-11-2012, 07:00   #31
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Old 16-11-2012, 08:08   #32
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
t

Can you tell me a solid CL-worthy defense that Falcao has broken down? If you look at the teams he has scored against this year:

Bilbao [10th 11/12]
Betis [13th 11/12]
Rayo [15th 11/12]
Valladolid [Promoted]
Malaga [4th 11/12]
Sociedad [12th 11/12]
Osasuna [7th 11/12]
He hasn't played a "CL-worthy" defense this year.
It isn't his mistake he has scored against them. And their performances this season have been different from last season. Atletico are 2nd, btw.

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My opinion is that he hasn't had 3 notably great performances against top teams in his European career. I would only count 1, and that is against Chelsea - against a completely different tactical playstyle compared to the 2012 Champions League final. Funnily enough, that is when people began hyping Falcao as the 'best striker in the world'.
You mean his CL career. When has he played a top team? You cannot tell a player's a bad player if he doesn't make his side win singlehandedly- just the same way you cannot praise Gomez's achievements without crediting his team-mates.

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FC Porto crashed out of the 2009/2010 Champions League, yet in 2010/2011 they went undefeated in their domestic competition, and destroyed teams in the Europa League, setting records for most goals scored.
Well that's pretty awesome, isn't it?

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Sadly, Falcao was not able to lead Atletico to the more important competition, being the Champions League. Instead, Atletico fed off scrubby teams in the Europa League like Celtic, Rennes, Udinese, Besiktas, etc. Don't even get me started on 2010/2011, where he destroyed the lepers, Spartak, and Vilarreal.
Do you think Gomez singlehandedly led Bayern to the CL final?
They played well with what they had. They beat Hannover & Valencia on their way to Europa League final.

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I can name 4 times in 2011/2012 that Mario Gomez had brilliant performances - against Netherlands, Manchester City, Napoli, and Basel.
Well look at the company Gomez has had in those games.

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It is true that Mario Gomez did not score against any of the teams in the Bundesliga top 4. However Atletico did not beat Barca, Madrid, Valencia, Mallorca, and Sevilla. Falcao did not score against Malaga, Levante, Osasuna, or Sevilla. That is 8 of the top 10 teams in La Liga [Atletico is #5, Bilbao is #10].
While you say Gomez did not score against any of the teams in the BL top 4, you allege that since Atletico did not beat these teams Falcao isn't as good as Gomez? Come on. He did, however, score twice against Valencia in the EL.

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And the thing is, the Bundesliga top 4 had much better defenses than the top teams in La Liga. Hell, even Borussia Mönchengladbach had a better defensive goal/game ratio than Barcelona.
You put Gladbach v/s Barcelona in a game and see the result.

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He became "popular" when he played in the Portuguese League for an undefeated team that only conceded 16 goals in 30 matches, and the best team he played against was Villareal in the Europa League [they got relegated the next year].

I simply think of him as a Europa League striker. I have yet to see him play well in the Champions League against good competition, and I bet that he will be playing for a bigger club next year. I do like him though, but I dislike the recent 'slaving' over his amazing ability.
He hasn't yet had a recurring opportunity to play CL football. And one should not blame him for that.

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The Bundesliga has extremely open and entertaining play. If you were to compare the Bundesliga top 10 teams from 11/12 to La Liga top 10 teams from 11/12, you would see the parity between the quality of teams, more specifically defenses. The bottom feeders of the league do not symbolize anything really, because they provide no positive output for the league in European play.
For sensible comparison, yeah, take the top 10 teams, and the year 11/12. Apart from Bayern, no German team survived the Spanish teams in a 1-to-1 encounter.

When you compare leagues- also note that teams in different leagues play different in style. The only fair way to compare them, imo, would be when they actually face off each other.

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My point is that Mario Gomez is an accomplished top-tier striker in European competition, unlike Radamel Falcao.
Well, good to know you have a point, but I wonder how is it relevant to the transfer of Radamel Falcao out of Atletico?

On T, if Madrid go for Falcao, Benzema would definitely be out of there. It's difficult to see him come to Bayern (who I find a very interesting player, probably more than Falcao ) since he would be looking for a starting role now.
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Old 16-11-2012, 16:09   #33
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He hasn't played a "CL-worthy" defense this year.
It isn't his mistake he has scored against them. And their performances this season have been different from last season. Atletico are 2nd, btw.
2nd for the moment. They obviously won't stay there for the rest of the season, and you never know if Falcao will stay there for the entire season. The only "CL-worthy" defense that he has played against was Malaga, and in that match he was really nothing compared to how he is against bottom-feeding teams.

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You mean his CL career. When has he played a top team? You cannot tell a player's a bad player if he doesn't make his side win singlehandedly- just the same way you cannot praise Gomez's achievements without crediting his team-mates.
Barcelona 2x
Real Madrid
Chelsea 3x
Arsenal 2x
Argentina

These are in my opinion the 9 big matches Falcao has played against in the past 3 years. He has only been a part of 2 victories, and scored only 6 goals [3 of them being in the Super Cup final, so there is a discrepancy] in those 9 matches.

Falcao is just as much of a service striker as Mario Gomez. I can only think of 2/3 goals in which he created the entire play, the rest were assisted plays by other players. It's just that Mario Gomez is a more efficient goal/minute scorer, and a more efficient goal/shot scorer. It doesn't matter if Ribery sets up a shot for Gomez at the 6 yard box, because if Gomez doesn't score on that shot, it isn't a goal. People miss from 6-8 yards all the time. Remember Yakubu at the 2010 World Cup? Or even this:



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Well that's pretty awesome, isn't it?
It moreover solidifies the fact that Porto are a Europa League team, and that they will be one for a while unless significant changes will be made. I can think that Porto could make the knock-out stages of the Champions League, but that is it, really. I would bet €100 on Porto winning the Europa League, though.



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Do you think Gomez singlehandedly led Bayern to the CL final?
They played well with what they had. They beat Hannover & Valencia on their way to Europa League final.
I do think that without Mario Gomez, the chances of Bayern making the Champions League final would be less. Gomez scored 46% of Bayern's goals in that CL campaign, some of them being great goals and the rest just good striker instinct.

Champions League has a massive talent gap from the Europa League.

Gomez played against: Villarreal, Manchester City, Napoli, Basel, Marseille, Real Madrid, and Chelsea.

Falcao played against: Celtic, Rennes, Udinese, Lazio, Besiktas, Hannover, Valencia, and Bilbao.

I bet that the 11/12 Basel side would beat every single team except Valencia on that list over 2 legs. That's the real difference between Europa League and Champions League.


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Well look at the company Gomez has had in those games.



My point is that another player [Schweinsteiger] facilitated the play, but Gomez created the goalscoring opportunity by himself, and converted it in a tough match against the Netherlands.

Remember his volleyed goal against Basel in the 7-0? Ribery began the attacking play, and Gomez brought a goal-scoring chance upon himself to score. And he did.

It's the same thing that Arsenal supporters get frustrated about. They have a striker with exceptional movement [Giroud], yet Arsenal cannot bring up attacking plays that allow Giroud to score often. And more often than not, Giroud misses.

Gomez is a luxury for our team that other teams wish they had. A striker that is clinical in finishing, helps defensively, and has brilliant attacking intelligence? That's rare, really. There are very few strikers that can score 80 goals in 2 years. Look back again at the £50M man Fernando Torres. He has Eden Hazard, Juan Mata, and Oscar behind him. That creative trident is in my opinion a top 3 trio in the world, it's just that Torres lacks the finishing and goalscoring prowess that better, more clinical strikers have.

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While you say Gomez did not score against any of the teams in the BL top 4, you allege that since Atletico did not beat these teams Falcao isn't as good as Gomez? Come on. He did, however, score twice against Valencia in the EL.
No, I'm saying that Falcao also did not perform against top teams in his league. I remember hearing about how Gomez "feeds on smaller teams", whereas he "chokes against big teams". He is obviously not a machine, and it is obviously easier to score against weaker teams. But when teams park buses [see Chelsea, see Leverkusen (even though he didn't play)] it's extremely difficult to score. Even Barcelona couldn't beat Celtic, and the way they played was horrid anti-football. Celtic had possession for 47 seconds in the second half of their CL match against Barcelona, yet Barça couldn't capitalize due to hoofball and 10 defenders.

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You put Gladbach v/s Barcelona in a game and see the result.
I was stating how the top teams in the Bundesliga had better defenses than those in La Liga. I'm sure if you gave 11/12 'Gladbach the opportunity to bus park like Celtic/Barcelona, they could salvage a draw or even win. Very few teams have the balls to play attacking football against Barcelona, but most of them submissively agree to playing anti-football in order to win. Is it entertaining? No. Does it give you a better chance to win? Yes.

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He hasn't yet had a recurring opportunity to play CL football. And one should not blame him for that.
He [and Atletico] had a massive opportunity to reach the Champions League, yet they didn't because they decided to have a better chance at winning the Europa League. Stupid, really. They are awash in debt and even if Falcao leaves, they will still be in debt.

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When you compare leagues- also note that teams in different leagues play different in style. The only fair way to compare them, imo, would be when they actually face off each other.
1v1 matches serve little importance if you want to decide "which league is better". I do think that La Liga is slightly better with depth in European competition, but if you gave the Bundesliga the same freedom to bathe in debt, there would be great foreign players on smaller teams.

It's poor logic as well, in my opinion. I could easily bring up the Scottish Premier League and La Liga. Over 2 legs, Celtic tied Barcelona on aggregate. Does that mean that the Scottish Premier League is better than La Liga, seeing as how Celtic [who are 2nd in their league] beat La Liga leaders Barcelona [who have their best start in xx years]?

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Well, good to know you have a point, but I wonder how is it relevant to the transfer of Radamel Falcao out of Atletico?

On T, if Madrid go for Falcao, Benzema would definitely be out of there. It's difficult to see him come to Bayern (who I find a very interesting player, probably more than Falcao ) since he would be looking for a starting role now.
It is extremely relevant, because until I see Falcao perform well in European competition, I won't think of him as any more than a top 5 worldwide striker. I won't belittle his accomplishments in the Europa League/Portugal/La Liga, but those are relatively insignificant in comparison to the finest club competition.

Long posts ftw.
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Old 16-11-2012, 21:34   #34
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You put Gladbach v/s Barcelona in a game and see the result.
I think the Gladbach of last year would murder Barcelona in counters.

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Old 16-11-2012, 23:16   #35
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Falcao is playing against shittier defenders than Gomez is: keep that in mind as well
Falcao scored like what? 3 goals against Chelsea? How many did Gomez? Don't be naive, Falcao is a player who can turn any game upside down by himself, Gomez iz not. Falcao is an old fashioned 9, like Ronaldo (not C.Ronaldo) was, Gomez is a tapper, keep that in mind as well

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And that matters why? Last time I checked the goals count the same when they cross the line.
When comparing a quality of two players, it actually matters.
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Old 16-11-2012, 23:24   #36
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I think the Gladbach of last year would murder Barcelona in counters.

You can't be serious, dude.
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Old 16-11-2012, 23:25   #37
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Falcao scored like what? 3 goals against Chelsea? How many did Gomez? Don't be naive, Falcao is a player who can turn any game upside down by himself, Gomez iz not. Falcao is an old fashioned 9, like Ronaldo (not C.Ronaldo) was, Gomez is a tapper, keep that in mind as well



When comparing a quality of two players, it actually matters.
I was just comparing the number of goals scored, not the abilities and techniques of each player, taking into account that BL and CL defenders have a higher profile than BBVA and EL defenders, Gomez has a much better scoring record than Falcao does, no matter what the abilities, or how much goals did each get against a particular team (Chelsea) in one game.
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Old 16-11-2012, 23:27   #38
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I'm sorry, but this isn't relevant to the statistics posted. It's about percentage of conversion of chances, not number of chances given. It doesn't matter of Gomez had 10 or 10 million chances, it matters how many he can actually convert.
Would you rather employe a guy who can write 200 pages a day and writes 50 of them or a guy who can write 100 pages a day and writes same amount of them? That's the difference beetwen Falcao and Gomez.

Call me hater, but I actually care if Gomez had 10 or 10 million chances, 'cause if he converted one of those 10 millions he had on May 19., CL pokal would have gone to Munich, not London.

However, I know you're not gonna agree with me, so I'll just stop it there
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Old 16-11-2012, 23:30   #39
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I was just comparing the number of goals scored, not the abilities and techniques of each player, taking into account that BL and CL defenders have a higher profile than BBVA and EL defenders, Gomez has a much better scoring record than Falcao does, no matter what the abilities, or how much goals did each get against a particular team (Chelsea) in one game.
I get it, but comparing a number of goals doesn't really creates a truthful image of a player, that's what I'm trying to say.
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Old 16-11-2012, 23:37   #40
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Maybe that's true, but based on his record, I respect Gomez and wouldn't simply trade him for a foreigner.
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Old 16-11-2012, 23:48   #41
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Maybe that's true, but based on his record, I respect Gomez and wouldn't simply trade him for a foreigner.
Neither would I, but some comments here were so unrealistic I couldn't help myself from tuning into debate.
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Old 17-11-2012, 00:15   #42
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Would you rather employe a guy who can write 200 pages a day and writes 50 of them or a guy who can write 100 pages a day and writes same amount of them? That's the difference beetwen Falcao and Gomez.

Call me hater, but I actually care if Gomez had 10 or 10 million chances, 'cause if he converted one of those 10 millions he had on May 19., CL pokal would have gone to Munich, not London.

However, I know you're not gonna agree with me, so I'll just stop it there
This statement here shows me that you don't appreciate the meaning of these statistics.
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Old 17-11-2012, 03:03   #43
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Falcao scored like what? 3 goals against Chelsea? How many did Gomez? Don't be naive, Falcao is a player who can turn any game upside down by himself, Gomez iz not. Falcao is an old fashioned 9, like Ronaldo (not C.Ronaldo) was, Gomez is a tapper, keep that in mind as well
The difference between both of those Chelsea sides is like night and day, and I'm sure you know it as well. It is pretty much fact that if Chelsea didn't park the bus against Bayern, it would have been an easy victory for Bayern.

The comparisons between Falcao and R9 are very wide. I would not mention Falcao in the same breath as Ronaldo. The reason is extremely obvious.

Statistics [however deceiving they may be] tell me that Mario Gomez is a more efficient shooter, more active defensive player, and a more efficient passer than Falcao. I would not shed complete judgement based on statistics, but Mario Gomez is a premier poacher and a top #9.

R9 was a complete striker who had the ability to turn a match just by playing. Players that can turn a match are extremely rare. I'd say that the only footballers that currently fit that bill are Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. Falcao is a service striker. Mario Gomez is a service striker. Just about every striker in the world must be serviced in order to be a top scorer.

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I get it, but comparing a number of goals doesn't really creates a truthful image of a player, that's what I'm trying to say.
Goals are the main factor in determining the quality of a striker. There is really nothing else that is as important as goals when comparing strikers. Comparing team accomplishments is useless, and recalling 1 match and attempting to use it as conclusive evidence is useless as well. Mario Gomez is consistent.
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Old 17-11-2012, 03:09   #44
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Since there are so many controversies surrounding Gomez's stats, (which I repeat make him look unnecessarily bad), an idea comes to mind which someone had floated.. It'd be good if someone could maintain this.
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Old 17-11-2012, 13:44   #45
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with all my respect to Gomez, we can't compare him with Falcao
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