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Old 03-06-2014, 19:27   #1
Dan
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How can the Bundesliga become more competitive?

I think even Bayern fans should acknowledge the fact that a team winning the league by December is detrimental to the excitement of the league and it may even backfire on Bayern like it did this year by us simply stop playing after we won the league.

I don't see how any other team could match us because our finances are simply much bigger than all other clubs in Germany. Dortmund tried to build a world class team but the economic realities make them unable to keep their best players and so they will only get worse.

I fear for the future of this league, a league which we could win by fielding our B-team is not a healthy league, the PL may be many things but at least they have a healthy competition. By far our league is the least healthy when it comes to the competition of all the top leagues.

In all the other leagues it would be almost unthinkable for the best team to be able to buy at will the best players from the second best team, it would be akin to Real Madrid losing Ronaldo and Bale to Barcelona or Liverpool losing Suarez and Gerrard to Man City, it's only in Germany that is possible and that does not create a healthy league.

Of course for Bayern fans it's great, we dominate all the competitions in Germany but i don't think it will do us any good in the long run to have zero competition in our own league because the Bundesliga will be seen as a joke league and thus the TV deals will be small and we will have trouble to keep up with the other big countries on the market for the top players.

I regrettably see no alternative but to allow investment into the league, what if say Schalke got a rich owner? They would then be able to keep their best players, invest in world class players and give us a hard time in the league, it would create a more exciting league even if it would be the end of German football as we know it. And to be honest; Rather an exciting league where some clubs are owned by rich people over a non exciting league were one club win the league by 25 points every single year. It isn't even seen as an achievement anymore to win the Bundesliga because of the huge lack of competition. To win the PL you have to be better than the likes of City, United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, it's a great achievement in itself and that is the situation we should strive for in Germany as well.
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Old 03-06-2014, 19:29   #2
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The BuLi is already quite competitive.

Schalke and BVB are on almost identical levels and certainly will be once Tuchel comes to Schalke. Wolfsburg and Leverkusen are great teams too, each capable of beating Bayern.

I expect that the title race is going to be a lot closer next year.
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Old 03-06-2014, 19:43   #3
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The BuLi is already quite competitive.

Schalke and BVB are on almost identical levels and certainly will be once Tuchel comes to Schalke. Wolfsburg and Leverkusen are great teams too, each capable of beating Bayern.

I expect that the title race is going to be a lot closer next year.
To be honest, no it isn't. None of the teams you mention will be anywhere close to Bayern, the players we have compared to them is miles apart in quality. Wolfsburg and Leverkusen great teams? Since when? Leverkusen is an mediocre side that would be midtable at best if they played in England which they proved by their disastrous matches against United and PSG.

The Bundesliga right now is a better version of the Scottish league and i don't think we can deny it anymore, a league which is over by December is not a healthy league, it's a crazy loop sided as a league could possibly get. Right now people over the world are losing interest in our league because the excitement we can offer is none right now compared to the other top leagues. We need competition in this league, both for Bayern's sake and the sake of German football as a whole. We are on the road to ruin as a footballing nation even if it works fine for Bayern a few years.

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Old 03-06-2014, 19:54   #4
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I regrettably see no alternative but to allow investment into the league, what if say Schalke got a rich owner? They would then be able to keep their best players, invest in world class players and give us a hard time in the league, it would create a more exciting league even if it would be the end of German football as we know it. And to be honest; Rather an exciting league where some clubs are owned by rich people over a non exciting league were one club win the league by 25 points every single year.
Er, read the German league rulebook. No clubs are allowed to be owned in Germany. The club must retain at least 51% ownership. What makes you think a league where some clubs are owned by rich people is fair? That is the opposite of fair. It means the clubs with the richest owners will win top 4 and the rest will be average. May as well compare the size of wallets and call it a day.

Kind of like how City and Chelsea will have no chance of winning without rich owners. City might even be relegated. now that they have sold out, they are in the top four but it means other teams lose out. Some other team got relegated instead of City going down because they found a rich Arab owner. Is that fair?
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Old 03-06-2014, 19:59   #5
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To be honest, no it isn't. None of the teams you mention will be anywhere close to Bayern, the players we have compared to them is miles apart in quality. Wolfsburg and Leverkusen great teams? Since when? Leverkusen is an mediocre side that would be midtable at best if they played in England which they proved by their disastrous matches against United and PSG.

The Bundesliga right now is a better version of the Scottish league and i don't think we can deny it anymore, a league which is over by December is not a healthy league, it's a crazy loop sided as a league could possibly get. Right now people over the world are losing interest in our league because the excitement we can offer is none right now compared to the other top leagues. We need competition in this league, both for Bayern's sake and the sake of German football as a whole. We are on the road to ruin as a footballing nation even if it works fine for Bayern a few years.
Dortmund wasn't "anything close to Bayern" when they won back to back championships and the DFB Pokal. Money isn't everything.
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Old 03-06-2014, 20:03   #6
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I think even Bayern fans should acknowledge the fact that a team winning the league by December is detrimental to the excitement of the league and it may even backfire on Bayern like it did this year by us simply stop playing after we won the league.

I don't see how any other team could match us because our finances are simply much bigger than all other clubs in Germany. Dortmund tried to build a world class team but the economic realities make them unable to keep their best players and so they will only get worse.

I fear for the future of this league, a league which we could win by fielding our B-team is not a healthy league, the PL may be many things but at least they have a healthy competition. By far our league is the least healthy when it comes to the competition of all the top leagues.

In all the other leagues it would be almost unthinkable for the best team to be able to buy at will the best players from the second best team, it would be akin to Real Madrid losing Ronaldo and Bale to Barcelona or Liverpool losing Suarez and Gerrard to Man City, it's only in Germany that is possible and that does not create a healthy league.

Of course for Bayern fans it's great, we dominate all the competitions in Germany but i don't think it will do us any good in the long run to have zero competition in our own league because the Bundesliga will be seen as a joke league and thus the TV deals will be small and we will have trouble to keep up with the other big countries on the market for the top players.

I regrettably see no alternative but to allow investment into the league, what if say Schalke got a rich owner? They would then be able to keep their best players, invest in world class players and give us a hard time in the league, it would create a more exciting league even if it would be the end of German football as we know it. And to be honest; Rather an exciting league where some clubs are owned by rich people over a non exciting league were one club win the league by 25 points every single year. It isn't even seen as an achievement anymore to win the Bundesliga because of the huge lack of competition. To win the PL you have to be better than the likes of City, United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, it's a great achievement in itself and that is the situation we should strive for in Germany as well.

Well, both of the transfers of Götze and Lewy has something in common: Dortmund weren't able to do anything about it, Götze's release clause could have been triggered by anyone but only Bayern had the balls to do so. Cheap shot? Most definitely but this is life, Dog Eat, Dog World!

Lewandowski had his heart set on a move to Bayern, refusing to get sold and join any of his countless admirers in the process. Bayern can't be blamed for Lewandowski only wanting to join them, should Bayern have turned him down for the sake of Dortmund and the league? Of course not.
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Old 03-06-2014, 20:03   #7
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BVB played with half of their B team due to injuries, so things could have been different this season. In La Liga, besides Barca and Real, there are no other strong teams (except Atletico recently). In 12-13, we outclassed both the Italian and the Spanish champions so, I would arrogantly presume we would have won the Serie A/La liga by a 25+ margin. Plus, the unemployment rate in Spain is about 25% and I`m guessing having something to eat will overtake the desire to watch football live, in the distant future (btw, I`ll make a prediction: if things go on like this in Spain, in the next 20-30 years, the La Liga will become a joke, just like Seria A has). Oil...come on...it won`t last forever.

My point is that the BL is the healthiest league from the top 6. If you take out Bayern and BvB, then I think it would be competitive enough.

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Old 03-06-2014, 20:19   #8
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Er, read the German league rulebook. No clubs are allowed to be owned in Germany. The club must retain at least 51% ownership. What makes you think a league where some clubs are owned by rich people is fair? That is the opposite of fair. It means the clubs with the richest owners will win top 4 and the rest will be average. May as well compare the size of wallets and call it a day.

Kind of like how City and Chelsea will have no chance of winning without rich owners. City might even be relegated. now that they have sold out, they are in the top four but it means other teams lose out. Some other team got relegated instead of City going down because they found a rich Arab owner. Is that fair?
Read what i wrote; If the alternative to not allowing rich owners in the league is a league which is over by December and were one team wins the league by 25 points every season i would choose allowing rich owners over that every step of the way.

Rich owners in a league is not a death kneel to football but if Bayern continues to dominate German football like we do today i really fear for the future of the sport in the country, fans of the other clubs will stop dreaming that their clubs could win the league.

We should stop being hypocrites and talk about ''fair play'' and face the reality, if a club like Dortmund loses their best players every single season then what hope do they have to challenge for the league title? The only alternative to me at least seems to be to scrap the rule and allow outside investments or else this league is on a path towards insignificance at it seems.

Which top class player in the future would go to Bayern and play in a league without competition when he can go to all the other more exciting leagues? This is why it's detrimental even for Bayern in the long run that this league is so dominated by us.
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Old 03-06-2014, 20:25   #9
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BVB played with half of their B team due to injuries, so things could have been different this season. In La Liga, besides Barca and Real, there are no other strong teams (except Atletico recently). In 12-13, we outclassed both the Italian and the Spanish champions so, I would arrogantly presume we would have won the Serie A/La liga by a 25+ margin. Plus, the unemployment rate in Spain is about 25% and I`m guessing having something to eat will overtake the desire to watch football live, in the distant future (btw, I`ll make a prediction: if things go on like this in Spain, in the next 20-30 years, the La Liga will become a joke, just like Seria A has). Oil...come on...it won`t last forever.

My point is that the BL is the healthiest league from the top 6. If you take out Bayern and BvB, then I think it would be competitive enough.
Could you answer the question then, is it a healthy league when one team wins the league by 25 points every year? Is it good for German football and it's popularity in the rest of the world?

I don't see how any other German team will challenge us because they have a complete lack of the funds necessary to build a team on our level.

You may speak arrogantly but the truth is that the German league is the league which is seen as a joke by most people, Schalke and Leverkusen proved that they were jokes on the European level and most people now see the Bundesliga as a weak league with only 2 good teams.

Germany is handicapping itself by limiting capitalism instead of allowing investments to flow into the league and thus creating a more exciting league with much more quality in the long run.
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Old 03-06-2014, 20:37   #10
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I'm seeing a lot of very interesting things in this thread.

Apparantly the BL is now over at Christmas time every year, though last I checked no team has ever won the league before match day 28 until this year (match day 27), Christmas is more like match day 17, not quite the same...

Secondly, I'm hearing the comments that Bayern winning the league 2 years in a row is somehow making the league uncompetitive, what about when BVB won it 2 years straight, did they also make the league uncompetitive? I don't think so.

A competitive league can mean several things. One definition is one where the league isn't decided until the very end, sometimes even on the last match day. This can be exciting no doubt but it doesn't necessarily have to signify that the particular league is competitive (in an international context such as CL/EL), just look at the Dutch league.

The second more common definition of competitive is perhaps when teams of a particular country's league perform consistently well in international competitions (Spanish teams are perhaps the best example of this).

I have very little to say about sugar daddies/oligarchs/oil sheiks or however they're called, I'm disgusted by them, to me they're destroying every football stands (it's a sport for the people, by the people, not by some billionaire) .

Bundesliga doesn't need outside investment in the way that the EPL has (I can't think of a better term, and I mean no offense) 'prostituted' itself, there honestly isn't anything 'English' about it anymore, not the owners, not the managers and certainly not the players.

I like the BL system as it is, low ticket prices, a sport for the masses and no crazy spending by power rich billionaires who treat clubs as their toys.

I do think that the DFL needs to work on marketing abroad to get better TV deals that would benefit the all the teams (City earned roughly 3 times as much as Bayern did in terms of TV rights this season, a massive, massive advantage).
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Old 03-06-2014, 20:39   #11
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Could you answer the question then, is it a healthy league when one team wins the league by 25 points every year? Is it good for German football and it's popularity in the rest of the world?
City couldn`t get out of the UCL GS two years ago despite the thousands of golden eggs pooped by their owner. Real spent how much to win the UCL? Chelsea how much? I can`t label these as being healthy things.

The answer to your question would be creating a "Super-league" consisting of Chelsea, City, Bayern, BvB, Real, Barca, Atletico, PSG.
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Old 03-06-2014, 20:47   #12
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long story short: money
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Old 03-06-2014, 20:49   #13
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I'm seeing a lot of very interesting things in this thread.

Apparantly the BL is now over at Christmas time every year, though last I checked no team has ever won the league before match day 28 until this year (match day 27), Christmas is more like match day 17, not quite the same...

Secondly, I'm hearing the comments that Bayern winning the league 2 years in a row is somehow making the league uncompetitive, what about when BVB won it 2 years straight, did they also make the league uncompetitive? I don't think so.

A competitive league can mean several things. One definition is one where the league isn't decided until the very end, sometimes even on the last match day. This can be exciting no doubt but it doesn't necessarily have to signify that the particular league is competitive (in an international context such as CL/EL), just look at the Dutch league.

The second more common definition of competitive is perhaps when teams of a particular country's league perform consistently well in international competitions (Spanish teams are perhaps the best example of this).

I have very little to say about sugar daddies/oligarchs/oil sheiks or however they're called, I'm disgusted by them, to me they're destroying every football stands (it's a sport for the people, by the people, not by some billionaire) .

Bundesliga doesn't need outside investment in the way that the EPL has (I can't think of a better term, and I mean no offense) 'prostituted' itself, there honestly isn't anything 'English' about it anymore, not the owners, not the managers and certainly not the players.

I like the BL system as it is, low ticket prices, a sport for the masses and no crazy spending by power rich billionaires who treat clubs as their toys.

I do think that the DFL needs to work on marketing abroad to get better TV deals that would benefit the all the teams (City earned roughly 3 times as much as Bayern did in terms of TV rights this season, a massive, massive advantage).
With over at Christmas i was of course meaning that we had a huge lead that we realistically could not lose by Christmas.

It's also a difference between winning the league and dominating the league, for 2 seasons Bayern have dominated the league by 20 points in a row and Bayern only continues to get better while teams like Dortmund falls even further behind us from year to year. Without their best player Lewandowski there is no chance that they will be better next year compared to this year because Ramos and Immobile is not of his level.

We have all the proof in the world that us dominating the league is not to the benefit of Bayern either, Bayern have the ambition to win the CL and it will be harder to do so if we are not challenged on a regular basis in our own league.

Also by marketing, it's pretty hard to market a league where 1 team dominates so totally as we do in Germany, why would people watch that league over a league which is more exciting in the long run? If anything the interest in German football even inside Germany will go down if our domination continues for 5-6 years more like it probably will.

If i have to choose between status quo where we win the league 8 years in a row without breaking a sweat or to scrap the rule and allow investment into the league i would choose the latter every day of the week.
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Old 03-06-2014, 20:53   #14
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Also by marketing, it's pretty hard to market a league where 1 team dominates so totally as we do in Germany, why would people watch that league over a league which is more exciting in the long run?
Man United have dominated English football over the last 20 years (winning the league 13 times) yet the EPL still became the most marketable league.

Just saying.

Check the spoiler for EPL winners since 1993

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1994 Manchester United
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1996 Manchester United
1997 Manchester United
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2007 Manchester United
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Old 03-06-2014, 20:53   #15
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I think even Bayern fans should acknowledge the fact that a team winning the league by December is detrimental to the excitement of the league and it may even backfire on Bayern like it did this year by us simply stop playing after we won the league.
I acknowledge the fact that more intense competition would be better for the league, and I think that's where the league is headed slowly but firmly.

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I don't see how any other team could match us because our finances are simply much bigger than all other clubs in Germany. Dortmund tried to build a world class team but the economic realities make them unable to keep their best players and so they will only get worse.
Wolfsburg and Leverkusen can easily outmatch Bayern financially if they just decided so; Wolfsburg has actually started to use it's financial strength already. I hope Leverkusen will do the same in the near future.

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I fear for the future of this league, a league which we could win by fielding our B-team is not a healthy league, the PL may be many things but at least they have a healthy competition. By far our league is the least healthy when it comes to the competition of all the top leagues.
Neither of these statements are true. Bayern's B-team cannot win the league, or do you have proof? Furthermore, the fact that the competition in the PL is more even than in the Bundesliga doesn't mean better quality; I mean just look at the recent success of the EPL teams in the UCL. Like they say, quantity doesn't mean quality. A league being backed up by oligarchs, sheikhs and other controversial businessmen is not a healthy league, by the way.

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In all the other leagues it would be almost unthinkable for the best team to be able to buy at will the best players from the second best team, it would be akin to Real Madrid losing Ronaldo and Bale to Barcelona or Liverpool losing Suarez and Gerrard to Man City, it's only in Germany that is possible and that does not create a healthy league.
That's how it goes in the EPL, La Liga, Serie A, and Ligue 1, too. Real and Barca always buy the best players from other Spanish teams; Juventus and AS Roma have been doing the same recently in Italy, AC Milan and Inter before, too; PSG and Monaco in France and before them it was Olympique Lyonnais and Olympique Marseille.

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Of course for Bayern fans it's great, we dominate all the competitions in Germany but i don't think it will do us any good in the long run to have zero competition in our own league because the Bundesliga will be seen as a joke league and thus the TV deals will be small and we will have trouble to keep up with the other big countries on the market for the top players.
The Bundesliga has never really focused on foreign markets and, thus, hasn't been marketing itself. Same goes for all the Bundesliga clubs until recently. So it's not really that much about the league being "boring". Like Sprinbok51 pointed out, the EPL became the most popular league even though ManU dominated it for several years. It's all about marketing, nothing more.

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I regrettably see no alternative but to allow investment into the league, what if say Schalke got a rich owner? They would then be able to keep their best players, invest in world class players and give us a hard time in the league, it would create a more exciting league even if it would be the end of German football as we know it. And to be honest; Rather an exciting league where some clubs are owned by rich people over a non exciting league were one club win the league by 25 points every single year. It isn't even seen as an achievement anymore to win the Bundesliga because of the huge lack of competition. To win the PL you have to be better than the likes of City, United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, it's a great achievement in itself and that is the situation we should strive for in Germany as well.
I wouldn't like to see the '50+1' rule being removed, but rather see the unfortunately common mismanagement in German football clubs being removed, and professional personnel being hired instead. Way too many teams are run by people who don't understand enough about football and the business around it (Schalke, HSV, Wolfsburg before, Leverkusen partially, and so on).

Last edited by micky; 03-06-2014 at 21:40.
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